Lets talk about nitrous. Technical approach.

[Bluedemon_II]

One thing that I see missing from most subaru oriented forums is the correct implementation of a Nitrous oxide system to complement power and not just spool up of the turbo.

Like my Vgt Thread, I want this to become a technical overview on the correct implementation of Nos on various setups. Any one is welcome to pour their knowledge!


I always wanted to run a Nos setup on my car, the instant power kick that it brings to the table is just amazing. Still most of the kits out there didn't cut it for me quality and setup wise. I like to read and learn all about a system when I get interested in it, and it seams that I have been reading on Nos for a while now.

The taboo that is mostly associated with nos is the sheer power to have a slip up and damage something IF not used properly. Like meth injection, its all on the setup.

The kit that I will be considering for my setup "If I do get it running after the holset build... or with the holset build:rofl:" is the WON Street blaster 150ti. http://www.noswizard.com/product_desc.php?id=221

This is a turbocharged fuel injected oriented kit. It has 2 arming switches, primary and secondary, a throttle activation switch and a adjustable pressure activated switch. You may configure them to your choice. The build quality of all the components it's just amazing.

My goal is for a small increase for now, something in the 35 or a 50 shoot area. I like that this kit uses PWM solenoids instead of generic solenoids like the rest of the kits out there. It is capable of running a 150hp blast but it could do more if you change to their bigger solenoids.

Frankly I don't care much about using the meth to spool up my turbo, the turbo itself will take care of the spool up with vgt. What I want is to add a little over the top in the case that more power is needed. My reasoning for this is as fallows, I don?t want an aggressive tune on my turbo setup and I can?t switch maps on my ems. Never the less I want a conservative tune to the point that the turbo will be working efficiently and not strained while on normal use. If I need a momentary power boost then the nos would take care of it, in a controlled manner.

In my case I will introduce another variable into the system; I have meth injection and will be spraying at the same time that the nos will spray. At the moment I am not using meth as a power adder, but more of knock suppression. Of all the meth injected Subaru?s in PR mine has to be the slowest, thanks to my approach. I don?t want to extract too much power to avoid a bad scenario in the case of failure. The nos will add its own fueling threw the jet and A/F shouldn?t be as much affected with appropriate tuning. The added Octane of meth and the added oxygen of nos should be an interesting combo. Sadly I haven?t seen it in a Subaru right now.
My inspiration for a successful nos injection setup is the Roger and Clark Motorsports Gobstopper car. Here is the dyno graph with and without the nos system. http://www.rogerclarkmotorsport.co.uk/images/gobstopper/gobstopper_power_graph.png


Maybe Nos won?t be practical for many users due to elevated costs etc. In my case I can refill the bottles for a low price since I have access to the large tanks used in welding and a simple manifold would allow me to refill my own bottles.
Also my Aem ems has a NOS control that allows me to retard timing and add fuel threw my injectors. Most standalone ems have a dedicated nos control scheme built into their programs which if setup appropriately will provide with maximum control. Also, WON sells a pressure activated switch for the fuel line that will send a signal to a relay if the pressure drops from a certain point and effectively shutting down the Nos system. This is due to the fact that most Nos equipped engines fail due to running lean.

Will continue later on.

 

[Bluedemon_II]

My dad an I where talking about that months ago.

This is what WON says about the subject:

Why Not Pure Oxygen?

The simple and most relevant answer is because we couldn’t get enough into the engine for it to be as effective as nitrous oxide. Air has only 23.6% oxygen by weight, the rest is made up largely of nitrogen. Although nitrogen does not aid the actual combustion process it does absorb heat, as well as damping what would otherwise be a violent explosion, rather than a controlled burn. When you add nitrous, it has 36% oxygen with the rest being nitrogen. So the more nitrous oxide you add, the less percentage of nitrogen is available to absorb heat. That’s one of the reasons why adding more nitrous increases the heat of combustion very rapidly. If we were to add pure oxygen (which has been tried), the percentage of nitrogen would progressively decline to a much greater degree than with nitrous, as more and more oxygen was added. Consequently an engine wouldn’t be able to handle much pure oxygen before the increase in heat lowered the detonation level to unusable levels. Furthermore, oxygen can only be ‘readily’ stored in a compressed ‘gaseous’ form, without being stored in a special cryogenic thermos cylinder (a cylinder within a cylinder with a vacuum between the two walls) and as a gas it loses the cooling effect that nitrous offers by being available as a liquid. Adding the oxidiser as gaseous oxygen would displace more air than adding nitrous in liquid form, resulting in a lower total power capability. In other words; by using nitrous oxide we can squeeze in more oxygen atoms in a more beneficial form, containing substantial amounts of detonation suppressing nitrogen, than would be the case with gaseous oxygen.

Also on a side note, Oxygen reacts violently with petroleum based products so the intake tract must be oil free, which is kinda hard on our engines.

 

[berdugo]

One thing that I see missing from most subaru oriented forums is the correct implementation of a Nitrous oxide system to complement power and not just spool up of the turbo.

Like my Vgt Thread, I want this to become a technical overview on the correct implementation of Nos on various setups. Any one is welcome to pour their knowledge!


I always wanted to run a Nos setup on my car, the instant power kick that it brings to the table is just amazing. Still most of the kits out there didn't cut it for me quality and setup wise. I like to read and learn all about a system when I get interested in it, and it seams that I have been reading on Nos for a while now.

The taboo that is mostly associated with nos is the sheer power to have a slip up and damage something IF not used properly. Like meth injection, its all on the setup.

The kit that I will be considering for my setup "If I do get it running after the holset build... or with the holset build:rofl:" is the WON Street blaster 150ti. http://www.noswizard.com/product_desc.php?id=221

This is a turbocharged fuel injected oriented kit. It has 2 arming switches, primary and secondary, a throttle activation switch and a adjustable pressure activated switch. You may configure them to your choice. The build quality of all the components it's just amazing.

My goal is for a small increase for now, something in the 35 or a 50 shoot area. I like that this kit uses PWM solenoids instead of generic solenoids like the rest of the kits out there. It is capable of running a 150hp blast but it could do more if you change to their bigger solenoids.

Frankly I don't care much about using the meth to spool up my turbo, the turbo itself will take care of the spool up with vgt. What I want is to add a little over the top in the case that more power is needed. My reasoning for this is as fallows, I don?t want an aggressive tune on my turbo setup and I can?t switch maps on my ems. Never the less I want a conservative tune to the point that the turbo will be working efficiently and not strained while on normal use. If I need a momentary power boost then the nos would take care of it, in a controlled manner.

In my case I will introduce another variable into the system; I have meth injection and will be spraying at the same time that the nos will spray. At the moment I am not using meth as a power adder, but more of knock suppression. Of all the meth injected Subaru?s in PR mine has to be the slowest, thanks to my approach. I don?t want to extract too much power to avoid a bad scenario in the case of failure. The nos will add its own fueling threw the jet and A/F shouldn?t be as much affected with appropriate tuning. The added Octane of meth and the added oxygen of nos should be an interesting combo. Sadly I haven?t seen it in a Subaru right now.
My inspiration for a successful nos injection setup is the Roger and Clark Motorsports Gobstopper car. Here is the dyno graph with and without the nos system. http://www.rogerclarkmotorsport.co.uk/images/gobstopper/gobstopper_power_graph.png


Maybe Nos won?t be practical for many users due to elevated costs etc. In my case I can refill the bottles for a low price since I have access to the large tanks used in welding and a simple manifold would allow me to refill my own bottles.
Also my Aem ems has a NOS control that allows me to retard timing and add fuel threw my injectors. Most standalone ems have a dedicated nos control scheme built into their programs which if setup appropriately will provide with maximum control. Also, WON sells a pressure activated switch for the fuel line that will send a signal to a relay if the pressure drops from a certain point and effectively shutting down the Nos system. This is due to the fact that most Nos equipped engines fail due to running lean.

Will continue later on.

hey bro, I'm glad you're considering a WON kit :thumbsup:

I myself will put a WON n2o kit but will use WON progressive REVO controller and a direct port approach. Doing a DP installation on a Subaru intake manifold will be a PITA because of the uneven height of the individual runners, just thinking of how to correctly install the venom injectors gives me a nightmare already.

But I'll install it to gain low end torque if I need it then reduce the power output of the WON kit as the boost climbs up. Having a 35R with 1.06 A/R exhaust gave me too much lag before. Now I'm using .63 A/R and the low end power improved a lot.

Later on after I'm done with my fuel system upgrade I'll install HTA 3586 with .82 A/R so I'm expecting a bit more lag than 35R with .63 A/R.

A lot of people don't really understand n2o injection (me included before I did research), without a progressive controller the effects of a "fixed" hit can be very stressful to the drivetrain. Even my MoTec tuner here don't like me using n2o, he said it's really unsafe to use (he was speaking from experience) but I think WON has the best design and technology for a safe n20 injection.

With a higher flowing turbo, more lag is expected and n2o can really help with the low end torque and high end hp depending on how it's setup.

I'll install a WON n2o with REVO kit for the following reasons

1. To help my engine produce more low end torque so I can match or exceed the low end torque of other engines with smaller turbos. I'm planning to use that only on a race track.

2. Since I'll use n2o only in a race track, the biggest advantage of n2o for me would be having more torque and whp on a very hot day. We all know that engines produces less power when it's really hot, injecting n2o would be a very big advantage on a very hot day. We also know that tires like a proper operating temp for it to give maximum grip. When it's hot, tires have a better grip then when it's cold, of course too much heat will cause the tires to loose grip also.

A good track conditions for me is a hot day with hot track to make tires grip better but not too hot to loose grip. Hot day meaning engines makes less power than usual which will give n2o assisted engines will have huge advantage.

It's true that n2o will raise the EGT a lot but it's also true that n2o in liquid form is very very cold and can act as chemical intercooler (so much cooler than meth will do) thus giving the engine more cold air.

I also read info about n2o not being burned completely during combustion (just like nitromethane) and it continues to burn in the exhaust track (exhaust manifold, UP, turbo, dp, cbe, up to muffler) and give a nice fire show at the muffler :lol:

Having a great n2o kit like WON is half the battle, the other half is the tuner. That's why I have really high respect for Dave Rowe for tuning the RCM with great results.

A good stand alone ecu will have a very big advantage when using n2o for the reasons you mentioned like compensations, plus other stand alone might be able to control the n2o solenoids directly but for me I'll just use the WON REVO controller for controlling the WON pulsoids (solenoids) and REVO to make life easier.

Other n2o kits have multiple stage n2o setup, IIRC some have 3 stages n2o setup. Even MoTec tuning software have this multi stage n2o setups but for me a WON with REVO setup will be so much smoother than a multi stage setup, plus IIRC one WON X-10 Pulsoid is capable of at least 250hp, hp rating is reduced by putting smaller "jets".

Here are some pics of WON parts I have




I also read that running n2o is very tough on the ignition components so it's best to prepare the ignition and fuel upgrades before running n2o kits.

I find these books very informative and I suggest anyone who are interested in n2o reading these books

http://www.amazon.com/Nitrous-Oxide...=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1292166716&sr=1-4


http://www.amazon.com/Nitrous-Perfo...=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1292167508&sr=1-2

 

[Bluedemon_II]

The Revo max is a little over kill for me. Some of the futures that the Revo uses, I have on My EMS. Here is a sample picture of the Nitrous control parameters.

In this window I can setup my ignition retard values to all the map ranges and How much fuel do I want to add threw the fuel injection system, separate from the nitrous system it self. It also allows me to set Engine Load, Rpm, Vss, Tps windows to control when will it come on.

Here I can set the ems to shut down the Nitrous system if my A/F gets lean. It can Shut the ignition, place the rev limit or using a relay it can activate a solenoid to drop boost apart from shutting the Nos system off.

What I do like is the Minimax controller. It offers what the aem can't, a progressive shot of Nos instead of a Instant Hit. Now I need to see how could I set the minimax to start spraying when the aem wants it to. Time to read the instruction manual.

Berdugo, do you know Trev at WON? I posted on their forums but it seams that no one can answer my questions on the general discussion area.

 

[berdugo]

Yes I know Trev, I talked to him on the phone several times already. Can you give me the link of your question at WON forum?

 

[Bluedemon_II]

http://forum.nitrous-advice.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5645

Thats the one. I wanted to discus this topic with him and bring the results over here so others will benefit.

Thanks!

 

[berdugo]

I just sent Trev a PM, he gets really busy from time to time but hopefully he will give an answer to your question on the WON forum. It's better if you can attach a pic of your setup, he asked me to post my engine bay's picture too.

 

[Kesic]

I know i never plan on doing nitrous setup in future but one question i have is how will this setup react with different types of fuel. I.E. E85 or Q16

 

[berdugo]

Trev just replied to your question at WON forum

http://forum.nitrous-advice.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5645

 

[Bluedemon_II]

If you use E85 or Q16 you may take advantage of more nitrous since the knock threshold of the fuel being used would allow for more power output.

Thanks Berdugo! Lets see what Trev says about my idea of using the ems controls with the minimax progressive controller.

 

[berdugo]

If you use E85 or Q16 you may take advantage of more nitrous since the knock threshold of the fuel being used would allow for more power output.

Thanks Berdugo! Lets see what Trev says about my idea of using the ems controls with the minimax progressive controller.

you're welcome bro

yeah I hope so too that Trev answer the question about your stand alone ems. Maybe if you mention the brand and model and you post the pic of the setup in the software he can give a more accurate answer.

I had the same idea before I bought MoTec M800 PnP, but I found out that that most outputs are used up. Initially I wanted the M800 to control both n2o and meth injection.

I end up buying the WON Revo controller along with other WON parts. Right now I'm trying to figure how to convert one of the M800 outputs as an "electronic switch" which I will connect to a relay so that instead of using a manual TP switch, the M800 will turn on the relay that will give signal to the Revo controller that I hit WOT thus spraying n2o depending on the parameters I set into the controller.

 

[stichris]

wow!!! lets not talk about this

 

[Bluedemon_II]

wow!!! lets not talk about this

Why? It seams like a hot topic over at the Uk, Europe. Correctly implemented it should yield interesting results.

 

[stichris]

oh didnt know but cheater juice really?

 

[berdugo]

I don't believe that n2o is a cheater juice. If you're racing and it's within the rules of the race then it's not cheating. RCM race car competes in Time Attack and the modification in their car is really cutting edge technology.

If you're race class allows a certain modification then I don't think anyone should restrict someone from using whatever modification that's beneficial to the performance of the car.

 

[Bluedemon_II]

It's a power adder, just like a big turbo or any other mod. I'm not cheating in a drag race or tdt if you want to race against me and this is a part of my vehicle setup. No flame or anything man, i just like how the system works. That would be like saying that using a vgt turbo would be cheating because I can have a 60lb/min turbo spooling like a 40lb/min one. It's just another scheme to get more o2 into the engine. Like berdugo said, Roger and Clark use nitrous on their time attack gc8 and No one will dare to call them cheaters for using it.

 

[BooBoo25931]

Holy reviving thread from the dead..

But my bfs wrx runs nitrous on the track setup, and it feels considerably different that without it. It ran 12.003 1/4s before hand, and this will be the first season with it on to see the results. Same set up just + a 150 shot

And...cheater juice??? I think not. Thats like saying someone runing Q16 is cheating and only 93 octane should be allowed, or a 60mm turbo is allowed but a F1r is cheating. It depends on what the car is tuned for, what your preferences are, and what classes you run in at the track. It also makes awesome clouds when the small red purge button is pushed