Some questions about meth

Alin

Diehard Car Enthusiast!
So, lately I have been looking more and more at meth injection. I have read this:

http://igotasti.com/vBforum/showthread.php/371-Meth-Alcohol-Injection-FAQ

There are multiple benefits to meth injection.
-A higher octane level
-chemical cooling
-More power (20-30 whp, 30-40wtq on a stage 2 application and more with a bigger turbo)
-The ability to obtain a leaner A/F ratio without detonation.
-An increased resistance to knock/ detonation
-A cleaner engine. The injection creates a steam cleaning effect on the internals of the engine.
-low cost (a meth kit with a failsafe can be had for under $700)

The things that I have been looking at are an increased resistance to knock/detonation and few other things combined for a safer power gain. Basically, there is no DOWNSIDE to going meth, right?

Are there things that I should know beforehand that isn't written or stated anywhere else about running meth? I have seen the kits that are most popular, but what are you guys running and why did you choose what you chose?
[MENTION=9]HolyCrapItsFast[/MENTION] [MENTION=1]IGOTASTi.COM[/MENTION] [MENTION=1507]Spamby[/MENTION] [MENTION=662]Batmobile_Engage[/MENTION] [MENTION=3416]WRB_STi[/MENTION] [MENTION=3516]zax[/MENTION] [MENTION=600]black bandit[/MENTION] [MENTION=1069]35r[/MENTION] [MENTION=4577]TK-421[/MENTION] [MENTION=652]Grinder34[/MENTION] [MENTION=711]Robert Viehweger[/MENTION]
 

Spamby

Meat Product Toy
Adding more gizmos can complicate things. More areas to fail. If your always into the pedal, your filling your meth tank a lot.
Main reasons why I didn't do meth.
E85 cause it's available here and it's basically a fill and forget without added gizmos. Plus it does the same as meth.
 

35r

New member
E85 is a "safer" and more efficient way to make power. Meth is a pain in the ass. I always forgot to fill it and it was a sketchy install. But... If you do end up using it DO NOT buy meth. Use the BLUE windshield washer fluid. Its damn near the exact same thing as "boost juice" and instead of paying $12gal plus shipping from some website, you can go to walmart and get a jug for $1.97
 

Spamby

Meat Product Toy
E85 is a "safer" and more efficient way to make power. Meth is a pain in the ass. I always forgot to fill it and it was a sketchy install. But... If you do end up using it DO NOT buy meth. Use the BLUE windshield washer fluid. Its damn near the exact same thing as "boost juice" and instead of paying $12gal plus shipping from some website, you can go to walmart and get a jug for $1.97

Yep. Cost was another, besides washer fluid. But you have to make sure the washer fluid is using methanol and at whatever percentage. 30% I think ?
 

Alin

Diehard Car Enthusiast!
So then meth is NOT recommend unless your only option is CAN91 and E85 is not available?
 

35r

New member
Boost juice is 49/51, thats why you use the blue washer fluid. Its is 50/50. Not enough to make a difference
 

TK-421

New member
I generally advise against using water meth injection, it's pretty big with the roots style supercharger and V8 muscle groups. Everything I've tuned in the past 5 or so years now has been 1 of 3 things. 91/93 pump gas, E85 or other Ethanol based fuels, or 110 or higher race fuel. Water meth injection is kinda the last resort type of deal for folks who do not want to go into the world of engine building, larger turbos, double pump fuel injection and so forth. My .02 on it is, I agree with above mentioning, for the cost of the kit, cost of install, and cost of tuning, the gains are not significant enough to shake a stick at. E85 is becoming more readily available as the days go on. The cost of the water meth kit alone, could pay for for a complete dyno tune by most top of the line shops and reputable tuners with fueling maps for E85/93/91 octane. They are even developing flex sensors that are capable of sensing how much ethanol content is in your fuel tank, and adjust the fuel and ignition maps accordingly. Though this feature is only available to Standalone ECU's right now, such as AEM and Haltech Elite.
 

Spamby

Meat Product Toy
[MENTION=662]Batmobile_Engage[/MENTION] is on meth. I'm sure his two cents will be valuable.
 

Batmobile_Engage

Squirrel Meat Aficionado.
Staff member
There are multiple benefits to meth injection.

-A higher octane level

-chemical cooling
-More power (20-30 whp, 30-40wtq on a stage 2 application and more with a bigger turbo)
-The ability to obtain a leaner A/F ratio without detonation.
-An increased resistance to knock/ detonation
-A cleaner engine. The injection creates a steam cleaning effect on the internals of the engine.
-low cost (a meth kit with a failsafe can be had for under $700)

The things that I have been looking at are an increased resistance to knock/detonation and few other things combined for a safer power gain. Basically, there is no DOWNSIDE to going meth, right?

Are there things that I should know beforehand that isn't written or stated anywhere else about running meth? I have seen the kits that are most popular, but what are you guys running and why did you choose what you chose?

Personally, I don't know why so many people are afraid of methanol injection systems. Given, there's always the chance that the system could fail, which of course would result in engine damage unless a properly installed failsafe system is used.

There are quite a few good quality systems on the market today, way more than even a few years ago. I have the AEM-HD kit. (HD-Heavy Duty, designed primarily for turbo diesel applications. Comes with a 5 gallon tank and a few different cc/min sized nozzles.) I might have chosen a different kit had I not been offered this one, brand new, in the box at a verrrrry low price.

Most tuners recommend a mixture of distilled water and methanol. Boost juice is a great option, especially because it's always pre-mixed to the exact same ratio. It's not that expensive, but there are many ways to make filling the tank cheaper. My last tuner was of the opinion that pure methanol is the way to go. Though I don't completely agree with that, there is really nothing wrong with it either. Being that the tune is set up for pure methanol, I went online and found a 5-gallon can of 99.5% methanol for $75. After my tuner originally filled the tank, I've occasionally topped it off with my 5-gallon can, and still have the same can (probably 25% full at this point) since summer 2011. Until just recently, the Batmobile has been my daily driver and I've run a number of auto-x events, so you can see how long that 5-gallon can has lasted me. Consider that if you mixed the methanol with distilled water yourself, it would last roughly twice as long. (To get the most accurate, repeatable mixture at home, you should mix the distilled water and methanol together, 50/50 BY VOLUME. If you mix it by weight, oh well....just make a note to mix it the EXACT same way next time as well.) Most people in the Subie community seem to shy away from pure methanol and almost always opt for a mixture with distilled water. Quite a few people in the EVO community run straight meth and I know a couple guys with 80's Buick Grand Nationals that have run straight meth for years and years with no problems. These are the main reasons that I didn't argue with my tuner over straight meth vs. water/meth.

Your methanol system controller will likely have a few settings. Some systems are "progressive" meaning that the amount of methanol being pumped can be increased along with the increasing boost. Non-progressive systems spray the same amount at peak boost as they do at activation. Mine is progressive and starts spraying methanol (into my boost tube, about 6" before the throttle body) at 10 psi and increases up to about 20 psi. Here you can also see how the system is not using methanol all the time, only when my right foot gets heavy enough to make at least 10 psi. :lol: 20-30whp gains are easily achievable and I've seen even 30-50whp increases on a few high boost setups.

My EGTs are a bit lower than on 93 alone, but I imagine they'd be considerably lower on a 50/50 mix of water/meth. Timing was advanced a bit to make more whp and my AFR is 11.24:1. Methanol not only increases the effective octane of the mixture in the cylinder, but does aid in cooling a bit. Water added in is what really drives down EGTs though. As far as methanol cleaning engine internals like valves, combustion chambers and pistons, there has been a lot of talk about this over the years. Joe and I will find out how true that is around this time next year when we tear down my motor. I'll be sure to take a lot of pictures.

There's also the fact that you can store more than one tune at a time if you have the software/laptop/tactrix or Cobb AP available. So you can have a 93 octane tune and a 93 oct+Meth tune. This could also save you money in the long run by not using the methanol tune all the time.

Some people argue that running pure methanol is damaging to aluminum engine components. While it is true that methanol accelerates corrosion of aluminum, you also have to consider the time it takes to actually corrode the aluminum. Apparently, people have forgotten how hot everything under the hood is. The flash point of pure methanol is 53*F and vaporizes immediately after being atomized into the boost stream, so there is no time where methanol is going to remain in contact with engine components long enough to cause damage. On the other hand, pure methanol is harder on the internal components of the methanol system itself, which could reduce life expectancy.

I personally shy away from using window washer fluid for the same reason I shy away from E85. Unless you can GUARANTEE that you'll always have the same exact brand of washer fluid available, I'd be hesistant. Maybe order an entire pallet from Walmart. :rofl: It's impossible to say whether the alcohol/water content is always going to be the same everytime. Which brings me to E85. I know many people use it with no problems, but there are also many people who have had tons of problems with E85, especially in the northern parts of the country where the ethanol content is varied with the seasons. You could always get a test kit for E85, but that's another story. IF I could run a flex sensor with the stock ECU, I would probably run E85. Also, without E85 , I don't have to worry as much about accumulating water in the tank.

Shit...I've lost my train of thought. Let me know if you have any other questions or want me to expand on something.
 
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HolyCrapItsFast

Drinks beer!
Personally, I don't know why so many people are afraid of methanol injection systems. Given, there's always the chance that the system could fail, which of course would result in engine damage unless a properly installed failsafe system is used.

There are quite a few good quality systems on the market today, way more than even a few years ago. I have the AEM-HD kit. (HD-Heavy Duty, designed primarily for turbo diesel applications. Comes with a 5 gallon tank and a few different cc/min sized nozzles.) I might have chosen a different kit had I not been offered this one, brand new, in the box at a verrrrry low price.

Most tuners recommend a mixture of distilled water and methanol. Boost juice is a great option, especially because it's always pre-mixed to the exact same ratio. It's not that expensive, but there are many ways to make filling the tank cheaper. My last tuner was of the opinion that pure methanol is the way to go. Though I don't completely agree with that, there is really nothing wrong with it either. Being that the tune is set up for pure methanol, I went online and found a 5-gallon can of 99.5% methanol for $75. After my tuner originally filled the tank, I've occasionally topped it off with my 5-gallon can, and still have the same can (probably 25% full at this point) since summer 2011. Until just recently, the Batmobile has been my daily driver and I've run a number of auto-x events, so you can see how long that 5-gallon can has lasted me. Consider that if you mixed the methanol with distilled water yourself, it would last roughly twice as long. (To get the most accurate, repeatable mixture at home, you should mix the distilled water and methanol together, 50/50 BY VOLUME. If you mix it by weight, oh well....just make a note to mix it the EXACT same way next time as well.)

Your methanol system controller will likely have a few settings. Some systems are "progressive" meaning that the amount of methanol being pumped can be increased along with the increasing boost. Non-progressive systems spray the same amount at peak boost as they do at activation. Mine is progressive and starts spraying methanol (into my boost tube, about 6" before the throttle body) at 10 psi and increases up to about 20 psi. Here you can also see how the system is not using methanol all the time, only when my right foot gets heavy enough to make at least 10 psi. :lol: 20-30whp gains are easily achievable and I've seen even 30-50whp increases on a few high boost setups.

My EGTs are a bit lower than on 93 alone, but I imagine they'd be considerably lower on a 50/50 mix of water/meth. Timing was advanced a bit to make more whp and my AFR is 11.24:1

There's also the fact that you can store more than one tune at a time if you have the software/laptop/tactrix or Cobb AP available. So you can have a 93 octane tune and a 93 oct+Meth tune. This could also save you money in the long run by not using the methanol tune all the time.

Some people argue that running pure methanol is damaging to aluminum engine components. While it is true that methanol accelerates corrosion of aluminum, you also have to consider the time it takes to actually corrode the aluminum. Apparently, people have forgotten how hot everything under the hood is. The flash point of pure methanol is 53*F and vaporizes immediately after being atomized into the boost stream, so there is no time where methanol is going to remain in contact with engine components long enough to cause damage. On the other hand, pure methanol is harder on the internal components of the methanol system itself, which could reduce life expectancy.

I personally shy away from using window washer fluid for the same reason I shy away from E85. Unless you can GUARANTEE that you'll always have the same exact brand of washer fluid available, I'd be hesistant. Maybe order and entire pallet from Walmart :rofl: It's impossible to say whether the alcohol/water content is always going to be the same everytime. Which brings me to E85. I know many people use it with no problems, but there are also many people who have had tons of problems with E85, especially in the northern parts of the country where the ethanol content is varied with the seasons. You could always get a test kit for E85, but that's another story. IF I could run a flex sensor with the stock ECU, I would probably run E85. Also, without E85 , I don't have to worry as much about accumulating water in the tank.

Shit...I've lost my train of thought. Let me know if you have any other questions or want me to expand on something.

There is no doubt that E85 is inconsistent and not only in ethanol content, but water content as well. Unless you know your source, e85 is a crap shoot. For me and my area I tend to recommend E85 over meth but that recommendation comes with a list of known good sources. Otherwise, if i cant control the source, I recommend meth
 

Alin

Diehard Car Enthusiast!
Is meth suggested/recommended over nothing? Basically, is the money spent well on this or can it be spent better elsewhere?
 

Batmobile_Engage

Squirrel Meat Aficionado.
Staff member
Is meth suggested/recommended over nothing? Basically, is the money spent well on this or can it be spent better elsewhere?

If you have regular access to race gas, and could have a seperate tune to take advantage of the increased octane, that option would be a great alternative.

Methanol injection seems to be a very personal decision based on all the pros and cons we've discussed, but for me it seems like a pretty good "Dollar per Horsepower" tradeoff.
 

Alin

Diehard Car Enthusiast!
Well i was looking for more safety precautions. The extra power is just a bonus that comes with it.
 

Batmobile_Engage

Squirrel Meat Aficionado.
Staff member
Well i was looking for more safety precautions. The extra power is just a bonus that comes with it.

I imagine that there may be a bit of engine safety added in the event that you slam the rev limiter or overboost, but remember that if you don't have the failsafe option installed, you're actually risking more engine damage.

I say this because, adding water/meth to a car that is already tuned nicely on 93 octane will net you no power gains, in fact it might reduce power output. To take advantage of water/meth injection, the tune is adjusted to be far more aggressive. Aggressive to the point that, if you are on full boost and the system fails, you will almost certainly experience a metric shit ton of knock, which as we all know, destroys motors.

Failsafe options that I've seen often perform one or two different actions in the event of a methanol system failure.
1. Force the ECU to pull timing.
2. Operate a solenoid that forces the wastegate wide open to reduce boost.
3. A few high end systems utilize both.
 
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Alin

Diehard Car Enthusiast!
So then in my case it isnt necessary. I feel very good about the tune george gave me. Its dialed in fantastically! :tup:
 

Batmobile_Engage

Squirrel Meat Aficionado.
Staff member
I imagine that there's more than enough safety in the tune you got from George.
 

Spamby

Meat Product Toy
Yes. I'd say if your not wanting the power benefits of ethanol or methanol, there is no need to use them. Safety wise, your tune should be good.
 
Basically with meth, you are relying on a second fuel source. If the pump fails run out of meth..., you run the risk of lean conditions and melting down the engine. Even if you build a safe guard in the tune, .5 seconds of lean is too long. I had meth for a while and it was fine until E85 came along. I went to a haltech ecu. It reads the ethanol content and bases the AFRs off of the reading. So basically if I do get a bad batch of fuel with lower than 70% ethanol, timing and boost is reduced. Also, winter blend ethanol is different. You should not run tons of boost with this. It is prone to detonation and is close to the 70% mark.

With the haltech, I can run pump gas in too with the flex fuel sensor. So if e85 isnt available, Im not stranded.

http://www.haltech.com/

http://www.haltech.com/flex-fuel-sensor-explained/
 
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