HolyCrapItsFast... Cyberu belongs to someone else now.
- Thread starter HolyCrapItsFast
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HolyCrapItsFast
Drinks beer!
[SUP]And today I installed car PC with DashCommand working...
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HolyCrapItsFast
Drinks beer!
I agree!
I will be taking some data once I finish making the controller. I am interested to see real time data on this and publish a chart and further proving Trubineguy's findings.
We were considering making a plug and play kit. I did some research and ended up pricing it right around $1400 - $1600. I bit pricey, but when you consider the gains versus the cons, it's actually quite low. So far there are no cons as compared to other solutions that I can see.
I will be taking some data once I finish making the controller. I am interested to see real time data on this and publish a chart and further proving Trubineguy's findings.
We were considering making a plug and play kit. I did some research and ended up pricing it right around $1400 - $1600. I bit pricey, but when you consider the gains versus the cons, it's actually quite low. So far there are no cons as compared to other solutions that I can see.
HolyCrapItsFast
Drinks beer!
The weight of the water is negligible. The system I put in is near 10 lbs lighter than what I took out and there is less than a gallon of water in the system. I'm still ahead by about 2-3 lbs. If I had an ice box then yeah... weight might become a thought, but still not significant when you compare to a total system. If you compare this to the stock TMIC then yeah, there is significant weight deficit.
Help me to understand what "steady state" is.
I can't see any scenario where an air to air intercooler is more efficient than an air to water intercooler. Efficiency is the axiom of AWIC's. The only time I can see low efficiency scenario is when the ambient temps are high and the delta temps through the heat exchanger are low. Even then an AWIC will be more efficient than an AAIC becasue the AAIC is subject to the same conditions. In that case, I slow down the pump to keep the water in the heat exchanger longer to try to effect greater delta temps and then spray the heat exchanger with water and apply the cooling fans. The effect that has is to cool the heat exchanger below ambient temp because of the cooling effect that evaporation has.Of course I plan to prove all of this by collecting irrefutable data.
Grinder34
Track Monkey
The simple answer: You've got two heat exchangers. There's a loss with each one.
Long answer:
For the sake of arguement, lets say that all heat exchangers are 90% efficient, and our scenario is ambient is 305K and the pre-IC compressed air is 340K. Other than doing my PV=nRT calculations, I have no idea what the pre-IC temps are at high boost levels. 340K is roughly 150F... For all i know its much hotter, so keep in mind my overall numbers may be pretty off.
For an Air-Air IC:
You get 90% of the 35K difference or remove 31.5K off the intake charge and come down to 308.5K.
For an Air-Water IC:
You get 90% efficiency for EACH exhcange (intake charge to water, then water to air). So you only get down to 311.65K, with the water being right in the middle at 308.3
But that's steady-state. Most of the time you're not running full boost, so your intake charge is only, say 310 around town. In that case, the water is around ambient of 305.5. So when you punch it, you've got virtually the same performance as an air-air.
It's also over-simplified. Touch your radiator after a highway drive, and it's cool to the touch. Now imagine it after a hot lap, you'll burn yourself. Around town, water in an AWIC is steady-state for town driving 305.5, and once you punch it, it'll slowly start to rise to the steady-state, but in the mean time it'll be relatively cool. Think of how long it takes to boil a gallon of water. For an auto-x you can take advantage of this by having an additional reservoir in the loop that's full of ice water. Think of how long it takes to boil 10 gallons of COLD water. By the end of your lap the water is warmer, but still colder than ambient and you're getting a benefit vs your 90 degree summer air.
If you alter the efficiencies, to say 95% for air-water and 80% for the air-air the numbers change again. Or say that a IC is more efficient than a smaller, and that your FMIC is larger than the TMIC. But the point is that you lose something at each transfer: nothing is 100% efficient.
I think that was a really rambling way of explaining if. Did it make sense?
Long answer:
For the sake of arguement, lets say that all heat exchangers are 90% efficient, and our scenario is ambient is 305K and the pre-IC compressed air is 340K. Other than doing my PV=nRT calculations, I have no idea what the pre-IC temps are at high boost levels. 340K is roughly 150F... For all i know its much hotter, so keep in mind my overall numbers may be pretty off.
For an Air-Air IC:
You get 90% of the 35K difference or remove 31.5K off the intake charge and come down to 308.5K.
For an Air-Water IC:
You get 90% efficiency for EACH exhcange (intake charge to water, then water to air). So you only get down to 311.65K, with the water being right in the middle at 308.3
But that's steady-state. Most of the time you're not running full boost, so your intake charge is only, say 310 around town. In that case, the water is around ambient of 305.5. So when you punch it, you've got virtually the same performance as an air-air.
It's also over-simplified. Touch your radiator after a highway drive, and it's cool to the touch. Now imagine it after a hot lap, you'll burn yourself. Around town, water in an AWIC is steady-state for town driving 305.5, and once you punch it, it'll slowly start to rise to the steady-state, but in the mean time it'll be relatively cool. Think of how long it takes to boil a gallon of water. For an auto-x you can take advantage of this by having an additional reservoir in the loop that's full of ice water. Think of how long it takes to boil 10 gallons of COLD water. By the end of your lap the water is warmer, but still colder than ambient and you're getting a benefit vs your 90 degree summer air.
If you alter the efficiencies, to say 95% for air-water and 80% for the air-air the numbers change again. Or say that a IC is more efficient than a smaller, and that your FMIC is larger than the TMIC. But the point is that you lose something at each transfer: nothing is 100% efficient.
I think that was a really rambling way of explaining if. Did it make sense?
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HolyCrapItsFast
Drinks beer!
I'm not sure I can follow any of that right now :lol:. I have to read it a few time for it to sink in. I think your missing a huge factor and that is the thermal transfer rate of the transfer medium itself. Air has considerably less thermal conductivity than water and the heat will transfer quicker with a AWIC.
It really doesn't matter how efficient the heat exchanger is as long as it can bring the supply water temps down to ambient temperature at the return side and feed the AWIC with ambient temp water sufficiently over time. The boost temps will be lowered faster because of the thermal transfer properties of water over air so your AWIC outputs will be closer to ambient which can be lower than actual intake temperatures if you are pulling in air from within the engine compartment. It is conceivable to see greater than 100% efficiency in this scenario. The beauty of the AWIC setup is you can somewhat control the efficiency of the heat exchanger by manipulating the water flow rate. So the system can be adaptive to some degree. I am considering mounting an Ice Box and allow it to bypass the heat exchanger, kind of like a dual effect system. This way when running ice, I could have far greater than 100% efficiency at the AWIC.
The monitoring system I plan to create will measure temperatures at the air intake, the boost side of the AWIC, the manifold side of the AWIC, the supply side of the heat exchanger, the return side of the heat exchanger and the outside ambient air. Then it will measure the water flow rate. From that I can calculate the efficiency of the AWIC in real time and calculate the BUT energy flow through the heat exchanger also in real time. Hopefully that will gather enough data to prove concept but ultimately I would like to see a direct comparison between an AWIC, a FMIC and an TMIC and hopefully to end the debate once and for all. :tup:
If it is worth anything, my ass feels the difference, and not just a little... a big, whole shit load night and day, put my life on the line if i am lying, Jesus Christ this is not my car, difference. Getting rid of that long piping length was most of it. The advantage I am hoping to bring to light is you don't need a FMIC for high horse power applications.
It really doesn't matter how efficient the heat exchanger is as long as it can bring the supply water temps down to ambient temperature at the return side and feed the AWIC with ambient temp water sufficiently over time. The boost temps will be lowered faster because of the thermal transfer properties of water over air so your AWIC outputs will be closer to ambient which can be lower than actual intake temperatures if you are pulling in air from within the engine compartment. It is conceivable to see greater than 100% efficiency in this scenario. The beauty of the AWIC setup is you can somewhat control the efficiency of the heat exchanger by manipulating the water flow rate. So the system can be adaptive to some degree. I am considering mounting an Ice Box and allow it to bypass the heat exchanger, kind of like a dual effect system. This way when running ice, I could have far greater than 100% efficiency at the AWIC.
The monitoring system I plan to create will measure temperatures at the air intake, the boost side of the AWIC, the manifold side of the AWIC, the supply side of the heat exchanger, the return side of the heat exchanger and the outside ambient air. Then it will measure the water flow rate. From that I can calculate the efficiency of the AWIC in real time and calculate the BUT energy flow through the heat exchanger also in real time. Hopefully that will gather enough data to prove concept but ultimately I would like to see a direct comparison between an AWIC, a FMIC and an TMIC and hopefully to end the debate once and for all. :tup:
If it is worth anything, my ass feels the difference, and not just a little... a big, whole shit load night and day, put my life on the line if i am lying, Jesus Christ this is not my car, difference. Getting rid of that long piping length was most of it. The advantage I am hoping to bring to light is you don't need a FMIC for high horse power applications.
Grinder34
Track Monkey
Yeah, so when I say "steady state" think of an F1 car at the end of the race. Everything is hot. HOT.
I think most of the F1 teams ARE running an AWIC. But they're designed from the ground up that way for ultimate throttle response (short piping). I guess what I was saying before is you've still gotta exchange the heat with the air, you're just adding one step in between. Each step is, by nature, slightly inefficient. But things like shorter piping, and more efficient places (and sizes) for the air interface can outweigh the extra step.
I think most of the F1 teams ARE running an AWIC. But they're designed from the ground up that way for ultimate throttle response (short piping). I guess what I was saying before is you've still gotta exchange the heat with the air, you're just adding one step in between. Each step is, by nature, slightly inefficient. But things like shorter piping, and more efficient places (and sizes) for the air interface can outweigh the extra step.
War_Panda04
STill Plays With Toys!
how do you do that btw? i want my signature to link to my journal
Grinder34
Track Monkey
http://igotasti.com/vBforum/profile.php?do=editsignature
Yours does link to your journal, it's just not hyperlinked as prettily.
Yours does link to your journal, it's just not hyperlinked as prettily.
HolyCrapItsFast
Drinks beer!
My bad... I will fix it.
War_Panda04
STill Plays With Toys!
yea i went in there and tired to do it myself... how do i make it so its not the link and just says my journal like yours does? i wanna be just like you lmao
Grinder34
Track Monkey
Just like when doing it here. Highlight the text you want to make a link, then click the button just above the text box that looks like a globe with a sidways 8 at the bottom. Paste in your link. Hit enter.
Or copy paste this:
My Journal
Or copy paste this:
My Journal
War_Panda04
STill Plays With Toys!
awesome! thanks dude
HolyCrapItsFast
Drinks beer!
:lol:
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